Posted by Amaterasu on 2008/11/3 22:01:35

I thought that I'd make a thoughtful topic and 'gauge' this forum for intelligent thinkers. Please, impress me! Onegai shimasu!

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I think that for the mostpart, in Western culture, we believe in ourselves - our own ability to shape and mould our futures with the choices we make and the actions we undertake.

But Eastern society teaches the absence of expectation, wants and acceptance for the world that IS. Our favourite singer, Hikki is, I think, a believer in what we'd call Fate.

In my youth, I was a fierce believer in predetermined 'fate' if you will. I believed that there were choices, and at each turn, there would be another choice. Yet at the end, there are only a few set endings for me. Almost like a video game (RPG) with multiple endings.

As I have grown older - I have changed despite my circumstances. Although my world is substantially darker than it was in my younger years, I have taken something away from my experiences. A will to fight, as it were. I now refuse to believe in any set end for myself as I believe that the word 'fate' is very egotistical. It would involve the entire existence around me to be a simple facilitation - a vessel to carry the present me to the set ending(s).

I am more scientific in my beliefs these days - that existence is all about chance and chaos; the belief that there is a greater 'thing', a 'meaning', an 'end' is ridiculous. The me of today exists out of various reasons - most of which are pure chance.. some of which are determined by my own actions. The world about us, the times we live all are a random set of circumstances in which we exist today.

I digress in thought for just a moment: Last night I was thinking of how truly remarkable my existence is. No, it is not my life or the person that I am. But the very fact that I exist. The random nature of the universe - the billions of planets circling the countless stars. And here I am, randomly produced from a coupling of homo-sapien-sapiens that conviently paired from the right sperm and egg to become me. If any of these things were out of whack, I could be a rock, a tree, a molecule, or a fish. But no - here I am blessed with higher thought and personal sentience. How remarkable!

Back to the topic at hand. If there is anything vaguely resembling predeterminism .. it is the completely random set of circumstances that we are born into. Such as, if I were born blind, or with super strength - then it would be my 'fate' to have these things. Or perhaps born into a world and time under warfare .. then that too would be my 'fate'.

What are you thoughts on the concept of 'free will', 'fate/destiny'? What are the extents of our existence? Are they without limit, or are we tied down somehow?

Posted by eni-san on 2008/11/4 6:25:07

DISCLAIMER: I am horrible at explaining my thoughts on these sorts of things...so if this makes next to no sense...it's my fault, not anyone else's.

Here's my thing. I believe in a mixture of predeterminism and free will. Here's how. As a Christian, I believe that God knows what will happen to everyone in the end. That's predestination, fate, all that. At the same time, it's intertwined with free will. We still have the power to do...basically, whatever we want, even though God knows how everything is going to work in the end. So it's not really like we're video game characters, being "controlled" by God in a metaphorical Playstation 2 RPG world sort of thing (i heart that analogy, ama... ). If such were the case, God would make it so that everyone would believe in Him, and there would be no other option. That is OBVIOUSLY a fallacy.

We have no idea how our lives will unfold. Even with free will, we have to make choices. But we can't see too far ahead in terms of consequences and things when we make them. And, of course things are left up to chance all the time. I mean, I don't know if I'm "fated" to trip and fall flat on my face today, do I?

I also find myself marvelling at how amazing the known universe is. I like looking up at the stars. And when I do...I feel like, there's got to be something more than just randomness. I'm not really bright enough to prove that in a compelling way...I just...things have happened in my life that can't be just coincidence. That's all I can really say. Take that however you will.

If you can make sense out of anything that I just said...kudos. I feel like it's convoluted. I tried...

Posted by Amaterasu on 2008/11/4 20:17:26

I appreciate the reply. It's a shame that not more here are chiming in...

For the record, I'm an atheist. I will avoid confrontation with personal beliefs with others as that often leads to a mess.

But I only want to ask you this question. If God knows the end result >>> how is this translated with free will? If he knows the last page in the novel but we can choose what happens in the chapters inbetween to an extent are our choices even ones that matter, ultimately?




*deletes a paragraph*

Heh heh. I was getting too 'into it'.

Hm. Well, I think that it our existence is really random and the fact that we are here not out of a planned event doesn't take away from the majesty of our existence. Its like finding 100 bucks on the floor one day, for no reason and with no one around. You just pick it up and say, "Wow! This is great!" it's much like that, but on an inconcievably astronomical level.

We are bound, ultimately, to coporeal existence and consequence. I think that our ends are always mastered in the realm of practicality > say, I can want to be Queen of England, but that is, practically, unset to happen - despite the fact that I have absolute free will.

And my will to think and believe ... even that is governed by genetics and upbringing and education. And thus, with those factored in, even our 'free thoughts' have limits.

It's a terribly interesting oxymoron.

Posted by Amaterasu on 2008/11/4 20:24:16

(del post x 2)

Posted by SwallowTail on 2008/11/4 20:48:10

I don't get it about this thread aniway u will got no real answer after all, everybody have their own thought bout this Predetermism versus Free Will things.

Why a shame if no one chiming this thread, this supposed the place where we can chat in fun way, maybe u can find other site where lot of ppl have a thought like u and share u'r thought there.

Posted by eni-san on 2008/11/4 20:55:49

Quote:

yeah...maybe the utadanet.com world isn't ready for this topic.
personally, i find that topics like these stretch the mind, perhaps a little too much...idk.
but i do thank you for remaining tolerant of what i believe. i've had too many experiences that end up with someone insulted and out for blood ...well, maybe not out for BLOOD...

Posted by Amaterasu on 2008/11/4 20:59:28

Quote:

*facepalms*

Well, you know.. I'm not really into talking about my b/f, g/f and 'wut did you hav for din-din t-night' kind of topics.

It IS a shame that people here don't take to talking about thoughtful matters .. because *gasp* I find them fun! Yeah, I do. You do carry a good point here - maybe this Hikki forum is the wrong place to look for intelligent type chat.



So .. how's that Paris Hilton? ROFLMAO.

Posted by SwallowTail on 2008/11/4 21:03:17

funny

Posted by eni-san on 2008/11/4 21:03:28

and as far as your question to me, ama...
it's hard to explain. but...i just think back to Adam and Eve in the Bible. God didn't make them robots. He gave them their own minds. But he DID give them instructions to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge. they were swayed away from this by Satan. Not controlled, but swayed. Persuaded, if you will. However...in the end, God still knew Man was going to fall. Things could have gone differently...but God knew what choices they were going to make, and what end that would take them to.

see, that probably doesn't answer your question...and i totally understand that. a lot of Biblical concepts are just difficult like that. this especially seems inherently contradictory, doesn't it...?

with that being said...maybe i should have said, "i don't know" and left it at that....
idk.

Posted by SwallowTail on 2008/11/4 21:06:55

See no real answer until u died